Transcript Generated by AI 00:00 Hey, Mark Parkinson here with Park Place and 00:03 welcome to a really special edition that we have of Let's Talk because believe it 00:08 or not, we have Jim Collins as a live guest here. 00:11 Yes, the Good to Great Jim Collins and I 00:14 couldn't be happier about that. 00:16 I think most of you that are listening to this call, 00:20 whether it's live or on a recorded version, 00:22 know that there isn't anyone outside of the long term care sector that's had more 00:27 of an impact within the long term care sector than Jim Collins. 00:32 Many of the very best companies in our space, 00:34 and I'm talking about companies like Ensign and Trilogy and Cascadia and so 00:39 many others, are really founded upon the principles 00:42 that are found in Good to Great and the subsequent works that Jim and his team 00:46 have done. 00:47 And I know that many of you every year set personal BHAGs and set BHAGs for your 00:53 team. 00:53 You're constantly looking to get the right people on the bus. 00:57 You're quietly trying to become level 5 leaders. 01:00 I mean, the impact that he's had on this sector 01:03 is it really cannot be overstated. 01:06 During the 14 years that I worked at the American Health Care Association, 01:11 2 of the highlights were the two years that Jim agreed to keynote our annual 01:16 meeting and provide such good guidance to our members. 01:20 To get a third bite at the apple and have Jim back live with us is a treat that I 01:24 really didn't expect and I I just couldn't be more pleased about it. 01:28 If you're listening to this live, you have the ability to ask questions. 01:32 Simply put your questions in the chat. 01:33 We've got some folks that are monitoring the chat and they'll forward the 01:37 questions on to me and we'll try to do as best as we can to get your questions 01:41 answered. 01:42 But let me just start out by saying, Jim, thank you very much for taking the time 01:45 to be here with us today. 01:47 It's a great joy. 01:48 And Mark, our relationship goes back quite a number 01:52 of years and I have very fond and vivid memories of the real privilege I had to 01:59 come and address your community. 02:02 And it's a great joy to be back with everyone with, 02:05 with new work to share and maybe touching upon some of the classic work. 02:10 Yeah. 02:10 And you know, I, I know you don't want to spend any time 02:14 talking about you because I know you're you how you value humility, but the I, 02:18 I would be get in trouble with the folks listening if I didn't thank you for your 02:23 prior works. 02:24 I mean, your works really are the foundation for 02:26 some of the, the best companies in the space. 02:29 And I don't know if that's, that's probably true in every sector 02:31 across the economy, but it's, it's really true in long term care. 02:34 So thank you for that. 02:36 Well, I'm really delighted. 02:37 You know, what are the wonderful things about 02:40 writing and doing research Is, is this very interesting blend of 02:44 something that's very solitary and then you're off working on the ideas and then 02:49 writing, and then it becomes something that goes 02:52 out to the world. 02:53 And what I love about that process is that in the end, 02:57 then the ideas and things like good to grade and good to grade in the social 03:02 sectors and so forth, they really become owned by the readers 03:07 and the people who embrace the ideas. 03:10 And ultimately it's about a, a, a gift to them and what they're what 03:15 they're building. 03:16 And it just brings me great joy to know that all that solitary effort may be made 03:22 a contribution to some. 03:24 Yeah, it's, it's phenomenal. 03:25 I, we recently had a retreat at Ensign, which is the largest company in the space. 03:30 And the entire retreat was, it was like going back to the oldies. 03:33 The entire retreat was based on the book of the great. 03:35 And so that that's happening in our, in our sector all of the time. 03:39 Now, I got a voice message from you last fall 03:43 asking if I pre read this book. 03:45 And at first I thought I was being pranked. 03:47 I thought I was one of our kids, you know, using AI or something. 03:51 But then you said some specific things about the speeches that you'd give us. 03:54 So I thought, oh man, this really is Jim Collins. 03:57 And so of course I said, yes, I want to, I want to pre read the book. 04:00 And I appreciate you thinking of me. 04:03 And I was surprised as I got into it. 04:06 And I could tell from the very first sentence that this was a a very different 04:10 book than what you've done before. 04:11 Because we all know about your books where you've analyzed companies and 04:15 what's good, what's great, really looking at metrics and company 04:19 performance. 04:20 But this is really a book about people. 04:22 So what is it? 04:23 What was the journey that that led you to this work? 04:28 What to make of a life? 04:30 Well, so, so first, the all of my prior work, as you know, 04:37 always did have a very strong lens on people. 04:42 And I always was interested in the leaders who built companies and how they 04:47 thought about who should be on the bus or how they thought about building 04:53 enterprises. 04:54 That really captured the spirit and the imagination and the intensity and the 04:59 wonderful dedication of people making great things happen for whoever their 05:05 company organization serves. 05:07 And, and so in a certain sense, really looking specifically at people 05:12 isn't entirely new because I've always had that lens. 05:15 But great organizations, great, great companies don't build themselves. 05:19 People built great companies and, and what they do always fascinated me. 05:24 But this one takes a much more personal turn. 05:27 And it's really a seed of just a seed that just stated ever since I was a a kid 05:36 and I had a number of incidents across my life, 05:40 beginning with as a young boy and then a early high school kid coming to the 05:48 really shattering realization that my father could never really be a father. 05:57 And there's a there's a Seminole moment. 06:00 I begin the book with it of me making this journey to New Mexico where he was 06:05 living in an Adobe Hut with a dirt floor. 06:08 And my parents had divorced at this point. 06:11 And I brought this Turkey to, to sort of bring it for us in my romantic 06:16 vision of my mind to, to share together and, 06:19 and that we would somehow have Thanksgiving and cook it in the wood 06:23 stove and all this, and a father would emerge. 06:27 And then I would have this guidance for life. 06:29 And I would have a father and I would have direction. 06:31 And what I discovered that weekend was my father was never going to be interested 06:38 in that. 06:38 And I had, when I got back on a Greyhound bus 06:41 heading out of New Mexico, I, I, I really felt like I was heading into the 06:46 fog of life with no guidance, no understanding how to do it, no, 06:50 no way of even trying to figure out what do you make of this one amazing gift of a 06:56 single life to live? 06:57 And not only did I not know what to do with that, I had no idea how to know. 07:03 And so I think that that seed just really went deep inside me and it just sat there 07:09 for years and years. 07:10 And then through a number of other experiences that we may touch upon, 07:15 I eventually just decided after I'd done 30 plus years of work on what makes great 07:20 organizations tick, I was going to come back to the question 07:23 of if you really think about people and their lives, 07:27 we have great organizations and great lives. 07:30 If I could study that in some way, it might ultimately resolve many of the 07:35 questions that I myself had starting when I was quite young. 07:40 And you talk in the book about obviously cliffs. 07:43 And I think most people that are listening just have read the book. 07:47 And the very first time that you started to look at life through the lens of a 07:51 Cliff was actually with the experience that your wife had had. 07:55 Joanne's a remarkable person. 07:57 And can, can you just talk a little bit about that? 08:01 Yeah. 08:01 So I, I have this kind of second major seed 08:06 that went in and it and it happened with Joanne. 08:11 Joanne as, as I think you, you may know, she is really kind of the beginning of 08:16 the inflection of my life. 08:18 When we got married, we were quite young, engaged four days after our first date 08:23 and here we are 45 years later. 08:25 And but in our 20s, a number of years ago, back in the 1980s, 08:30 Joanne became a world champion athlete. 08:33 She won the Hawaii Iron Man in in 1985 and she was just incredibly well 08:39 constructed to be a competitive elite world class athlete. 08:44 And then because of an injury that had that hit her hamstring, 08:50 it really affected her racing and eventually ended her career prematurely. 08:57 So she had this definition, you know, I'm a professional athlete. 09:00 She just, she loved training, she loved competing, she loved racing. 09:04 She she, she loved representing her sponsors. 09:07 I mean, she was just so almost like perfectly 09:11 constructed for this. 09:13 And then it was ripped away by this injury. 09:16 And and I remember, I mean, more than remember, 09:20 it's like emotionally seared in me this moment when she really realized it was 09:27 over and she looked at me one morning and said, I feel like I'm dying. 09:34 And and in a sense, she was dying, meaning this identity of what she was, 09:40 what she had been, what her life, how she really brought herself to the 09:46 fore was coming to an end. 09:49 And I didn't have an answer for her. 09:51 And I think that moment and the real sense of her gasp and my inability to 09:57 have anything useful to say about that was sort of this second seed of, you know, 10:04 there come these times in life when you have what we now in this book called 10:10 Cliff events, an event that changes your life in some 10:15 very significant way where the life that you knew it before in some significant 10:21 way is over. 10:23 And you have to now answer the question, well, well, 10:26 now what to make of a life after this Cliff? 10:30 And so that really became kind of a crystallizing additional seed that led to 10:36 this study. 10:37 How do people not only answer the question coming out of the fog of youth, 10:42 as I faced when I was a young, quite young in the earlier story, but how, 10:47 when your life goes through a Cliff, do you answer the question again of what 10:52 to make of a life? 10:55 And so these Cliff events, when I initially started reading the book, 10:59 I was thinking these Cliff events are like almost always bad events. 11:03 It's like Joanne's injury, spectacular world class athlete. 11:07 And I've gone back and and she was amazing. 11:09 Anybody spends a 5 minute Google search, you're going to find some incredible 11:13 stories about her in 1985. 11:16 And then all of a sudden it's gone. 11:17 Or you, you have elite athletes, all of a sudden it's gone, it's done. 11:22 Or you, you have multiple examples, you know, 11:24 whether it's a disease diagnosis or something else like that, 11:28 or the end of a rock band, like the end of the rock band because 11:32 someone died. 11:34 But you can actually face a, a Cliff through a success. 11:37 You can, you can, you can achieve something, you know, 11:39 and you talk about the two leaders that led to women's suffrage. 11:43 They, they succeeded. 11:44 And so there's a lot of different scenarios where you can face this Cliff 11:47 where you're spectacularly good at something and all of a sudden that 11:51 something is over. 11:52 Right, Exactly. 11:53 You know, and there's, and there's so many different types of 11:56 clips. 11:56 You've touched on a number of them. 11:57 I mean, on the, there can be the painful and, and, 12:00 you know, hard to frame as positive clips that can 12:03 be disease cliffs, tragedy cliffs, major setbacks, seeing you're in, 12:07 you know, the, the, the world which you've dedicated yourself 12:11 maybe getting wiped out by a technology or whatever it happens to be, right. 12:16 There are those kinds of cliffs that end of a significant relationship can be a 12:20 major cliff for people. 12:21 And but then there are these other cliffs. 12:23 Like for a lot of young people, graduation is kind of a cliff because if 12:28 they haven't thought about what comes next and then school's over, right? 12:32 That can be very cliffy and and very foggy after that. 12:35 But you can also have, as you and I were were discussing earlier, 12:40 you know, Alice Paul and Lucy Burns, they won. 12:43 That's a success. 12:44 But then it raises the question of what's next. 12:47 And then, you know, for a lot of business people, 12:50 a lot of people who build organizations or in certain roles of leadership and it 12:55 suits them so well, there comes a time when they actually get 12:59 to exit as a success. 13:00 Maybe they sell their business. 13:02 Maybe they led and it was time for them to do something else. 13:05 But or maybe it's just a successful retirement. 13:09 And what I find, and I think you've seen as well, Mark, 13:14 is this thing that that is actually a cliff because if you have been so engaged 13:21 in building our organization or leading in a given arena or something, 13:27 that really not only did it suit you well, it kind of consumed you in the best 13:34 possible way. 13:36 And then it's done. 13:36 And as as this book shows, it actually turns out that we hit some of 13:42 our best and most creative, most potentially fire filled, 13:47 most intense phases of life after the age of 60. 13:52 So if you match the sense of on one hand, I've I've sold my business or I have, 13:58 you know, I've, I've left my leadership role just at the 14:02 very time that your very best years might be beginning, right, right, right. 14:08 That can be also a really significant cliff. 14:12 And that's why the other question that really animated me was kind of given to 14:16 me by John W Gardner who wrote Self Renewal. 14:19 Well, why do some people then continue to have 14:23 incredibly self renewed lives way in those later decades, 14:27 even if what they did before they successfully left? 14:32 Well, we're going to come back to this notion 14:35 of people 6, you know, succeeding and selling their businesses 14:39 when they're in their 40s, 50s and 60s and have maybe decades in 14:42 front of them. 14:43 We're going to come back to that because I know there's a lot of people that are 14:47 listening to this that have either recently sold their businesses or 14:50 thinking about whether or not they should do it. 14:52 So I'm anxious to come back with that. 14:54 Great. 14:54 Let's make sure we mark that and return to it. 14:56 We're going to come to that. 14:58 But before we get to that, let's just talk a little bit about the 15:01 process for the book. 15:01 And I'll just stipulate to everybody so we don't have to spend too much time on 15:05 this, that even though this is a book about 15:07 people, this is not something that you put 15:09 together with the anecdotes. 15:11 You had 10 years of of research, you had 28 researchers, 20,000 documents. 15:16 You had a very rigorous scientific process, this whole thing, 15:19 and you ended up with these pairs talk, talk a little bit about the decision to 15:23 do pairs and what the process was. 15:26 Well, so the, the, I've always loved being able to take 15:30 entities that are in very similar situations and then they make different 15:36 choices. 15:37 And then you examine how those choices play out. 15:40 And from that you learn maybe deeper insights that if you only looked at 1:00 15:47 one side of the coin. 15:49 And in this study, I've, I've always used that in my great 15:52 companies, great organizations research. 15:55 In this study, I decided to use pears again because when 15:58 you see two people at the same cliff or going through a very similar pattern 16:04 stage of life, and then you see them make different 16:07 choices, you can then basically begin to say, well, 16:11 what's even though their choices are different, if their lives still work, 16:16 what unifies underneath those very, very different choices? 16:20 Let me just just very briefly, you know, highlight one to kind of illustrate this. 16:26 If you look at a pair of women in science, which begin their first pair that I hit 16:31 in the book, we look at their whole lives. 16:34 But what's very interesting is 1 was Barbara McClintock, the geneticist, 16:38 and the other was Grace Hopper, the computer scientist, 16:41 and they both made Seminole contributions in their fields. 16:46 What's really interesting is that if you look at one of the ways in which as they 16:50 kind of went through the Cliff of realizing they could not do their work at 16:55 a traditional university, their their opportunities were curtailed 16:59 by being women in science in the era of the first half of the 20th century. 17:04 So they had to find a different platform, a different way of doing it, and, 17:08 and they went and they did. 17:09 So what's interesting is that they made different choices. 17:14 One, in the case of Grace Hopper, learning how to continue to do computer 17:19 science, often with and through other people 17:22 inside institutions like the Department of Defense, the United States Navy, 17:27 corporations, and so forth. 17:30 Barbara McClintock went to a research institute and just burrowed as a solo 17:34 scientist deeper and deeper and deeper into the study of genes. 17:38 Now, here you have two women facing very 17:41 similar situations, leaving universities and trying to figure 17:44 out how to continue doing their work. 17:46 They made different choices. 17:48 And then the question is, will both of those choices work? 17:52 So what does it teach us? 17:54 And what it teaches us is that they made, they both made good choices because their 18:00 choices reflected how they are encoded. 18:04 And they didn't. 18:05 Barbara McClintock didn't try to do what Grace Hopper did. 18:08 Grace Hopper did not try to do what Barbara McClintock did. 18:12 What they each did was to hew to what their encodings were, 18:16 which we'll touch upon in a moment. 18:19 And then their choices reflected that. 18:21 So their their, their paths were different, 18:25 but the animating way they made the decision was essentially the same. 18:32 And that is that type of pairing then sharpens the importance of hewing to your 18:39 encodings, which I wouldn't have seen as clearly 18:43 without the pairs. 18:45 Yeah. 18:45 And that my next question was about encoding. 18:48 So, so it's, it's a perfect transition. 18:50 And, and this is something that, you know, I think it's so important. 18:54 It's a little hard. 18:56 It took me a few times to really completely grasp this. 19:00 In summary forms. 19:01 You're encoded. 19:02 You, you believe that people have within them 19:05 these almost, almost genetic or within their DNA, 19:08 they have these traits and these talents that they're encoded for that need to be 19:13 discovered when they're discovered or activated. 19:16 And you maybe you can clean this up for me in their, in their full element, 19:20 they're in frame, they're doing what they're were encoded 19:23 to do. 19:24 Can, can you just maybe maybe clean that 19:26 definition up a little bit? 19:28 So, so as I came to understand it, and, and encoding encodings are kind of 19:36 durable capacities that reside inside us awaiting discovery through the 19:44 experiences of life. 19:47 Mark, you have encodings and I have encodings 19:50 and everybody that's joining us on this conversation today have encodings. 19:55 They're different for each of us. 19:57 Your encodings are different than my encodings. 19:59 Barbara McClintock's encodings were different than Grace Hopper's encodings. 20:03 And so and, and these, these encodings are are, 20:06 you can build upon them of course with training and development and all that 20:11 sort of stuff, but there are these things that when you 20:14 hit them, they just sort of light up. 20:16 And you're able to kind of there are certain things that are just much more 20:21 natural, much easier for you. 20:22 They really instinctive. 20:24 So let's just use the two women in science to quickly illustrate in case of 20:30 of Barbara McClintock, she had an encoding to just solve 20:35 problems. 20:36 She just, when she got her teeth on a problem, 20:39 she could so completely lose herself in the pursuit of that problem that at one 20:45 point when she was solving problems on an exam in college, as you know, she, 20:50 she forgot her own name. 20:52 When it came time to put her name on the exam, 20:54 she couldn't remember her own name 'cause she was so absorbed in solving the 20:58 problems. 20:59 And there was this other time when she was working at the University of Missouri. 21:02 It's a Sunday. 21:04 She has a genetics problem she's working on and she gets to the building, 21:08 realizes she doesn't have her keys. 21:10 Now she could spend time to go all the way back to where she lived to get her 21:14 keys and somehow let herself in. 21:15 But no, the problem couldn't wait. 21:18 So she climbed up the outside of the building and in a window so she could get 21:23 to work on the problem. 21:24 And and then she just, and this and this showed up very early 21:28 for her that once it sort of got exposed and then she applied it to genetics. 21:33 Bang that she played to that problem solving encoding Grace Hopper when she 21:38 was a little girl. 21:40 She goes to her family summer house, goes to all the rooms, 21:44 takes all the alarm clocks, takes them apart. 21:48 I mean, to the great consternation of her mother, 21:50 she takes all the clocks apart because she has this encoding gadgets. 21:54 She's encoded to figure out how gadgets work and what to do with gadgets and she 21:58 just, it just sort of lights up. 22:01 Then they're through this marvelous moment in life, a reveal that happens. 22:05 She gets put by a series of steps. 22:07 We lay out in the book that she gets put on the first computer project in the 22:10 United States called the Mark One in World War 2 at Harvard. 22:14 And she described it as the prettiest gadget she ever saw. 22:18 And for the rest of her life, she was, it was gadget, 22:22 she was encoded for gadgets. 22:24 But she dedicated herself to making these gadgets that she fell in love with called 22:28 computers come to life through how we could do that with software and compilers 22:33 and so forth. 22:34 And what's interesting is that problem solving and coding and Barbara McClintock 22:39 and the and the gadget love of gadgets and how they work and how to make them 22:44 work better within Grace Hopper. 22:47 They were already in there. 22:49 And then what happened was the steps of life kind of really brought them to the 22:53 fore and then they trusted them. 22:55 Yeah. 22:56 So I think that's a great, a great explanation of it. 22:59 And when you, when you're doing what you're encoded to 23:02 do and you're, you're in frame as you, as you, as you talk about it. 23:08 But unfortunately, these cliffs develop usually negative, 23:11 sometimes voluntary, and you're no longer doing what you're 23:15 encoded to do. 23:16 You, you find yourself in, as you describe at the fog and you got to 23:20 figure out how do I find something that's going to activate my encoding? 23:24 That one of the one of the optimistic or good pieces of news in the book is that 23:29 you can be encoded to do multiple things. 23:32 It's not just like you have one thing. 23:36 I think John Glenn is a good example of it in the book. 23:38 He he was encoded to be a great pilot and then he got to talk, 23:44 talk about his his Yeah. 23:46 So Mark, I think you're absolutely right. 23:50 It's a marvelous example of of two things that we can really share that became came 23:55 out of the book 1 is this notion of being in frame with a set of encodings. 23:59 And the second being that you may have to find another frame when one comes to an 24:03 end. 24:04 So in the case of John Glenn, so I like the the term in frame comes 24:09 just so everybody in our conversation gets the the visual image of this. 24:14 I kind of came to see it as that these encodings, 24:17 they're like a constellation and just like a constellation of stars, 24:21 they're just sort of always there, but you can't necessarily always see them. 24:26 All right. 24:27 So if you're looking through a telescope or a window, 24:30 you're only able to see a portion of those of the constellation, 24:34 and that what changes over the course of your life is sort of the frame. 24:38 And there can be times in life when the frame is sort of shifted and captures a 24:43 big bright set of encodings. 24:45 But there may be another time when the frame shifts and it sort of doesn't 24:50 capture very many encodings. 24:52 You're still the same person, but the frame has shifted. 24:57 So in the case of John Glenn, he go, he goes through multiple renditions of 25:01 this in college, he was sort of out of frame taking 25:05 chemistry classes and it didn't really light up his encodings and sports didn't 25:10 really light up his encodings. 25:12 And then by a lucky event, he was able to get a pilot's license. 25:16 And, and as soon as he was in aircrafts and 25:20 all the things that it took to be a pilot and to feel like he a feel for the 25:27 aircraft, but also just his calm in the face of 25:31 danger and speed. 25:33 And those encodings all of a sudden were in frame. 25:36 And he became a fighter pilot and then a jet fighter pilot, 25:40 then a test pilot and then eventually an astronaut. 25:44 Multiple decades of really in frame. 25:47 And then came the cliff at age 42. 25:53 It was the end of his astronaut career. 25:55 He resigned his Commission and went to left NASA. 26:01 And then for about the next kind of 10% of his life is almost a decade, 26:06 something like that. 26:08 He went and was a business executive. 26:09 And what's really interesting is that in his memoir, 26:13 that portion of his life is about 10% of his life, but it's 0.2% of his memoir. 26:20 And, and what I took from that is I'm sure he 26:23 was fine at it, but he wasn't like he was when he was the 26:27 aviator. 26:28 And, and then about 10 years later roughly, 26:32 if something on that order, he comes back in frame as a senator from 26:37 the state of Ohio and spends the next quarter century in frame as a senator 26:42 with one time he stepped out when he ran for president, which was out of frame, 26:48 but most of it was in frame. 26:51 And there's two things about this. 26:52 One, the frame can shift and there can be 26:55 times in our life when we're in frame and times in our life when we're much less in 26:59 frame relative to those other times kind of out of frame. 27:03 And the other is what it took to be a senator and what it took to orbit the 27:10 Earth and to be in a fighter jet. 27:15 They both played to John Glenn's encodings, 27:18 but many of the encodings were in a different part of the constellation. 27:23 And so whether that be like Alan Page going from football to law or Tenley 27:29 Albright going from skating to surgery or John Glenn going from astronaut to 27:35 senator, what was for me a great exhale is you 27:39 don't have to find just the one thing you're made for. 27:43 There are many possibilities inside each of us. 27:48 Yeah. 27:48 I mean, that's such encouraging news. 27:51 And during the time that people are looking for their next time when they're 27:57 in frame, you describe them being in the fog. 28:00 And I think a lot of our listeners can relate to that. 28:03 I know I certainly can at various times in my life. 28:07 How, how, what are the lessons? 28:09 When I know, I know we've got people that are friends 28:12 of mine that I know that have just retired or that have just sold their 28:15 businesses or that have just been received a diagnosis. 28:19 When you find yourself in the fog, how do you get out of it? 28:23 How do you get in? 28:24 How do you get back in frame? 28:25 What, what is the lesson? 28:27 What are the lessons of the book? 28:28 So first, let's briefly define fog for everyone. 28:33 And fog is a time when you just relative to we've all had times when we feel very 28:38 clear in life or most of us have had like, I'm just clear what I'm doing. 28:42 I'm clear what direction I'm going. 28:44 And, and, and that that's a clarity phase. 28:48 A fog phase is when you really do feel lost or disoriented, confused, reeling, 28:57 uncertain. 28:59 It's just, it's a really foggy world you're looking 29:02 into and, and, and you may not even know where you want 29:07 to go out of the fog. 29:09 It might not. 29:09 It might not be as simple as I just don't know my with the path. 29:12 It could be you have no idea of the destination and, 29:15 and what we found because we were looking, you know, 29:19 with these people going through life hitting the same Cliff and then, you know, 29:23 seeing how they made choices coming out of that is in most cases all the way to 29:28 the end of their lives. 29:31 I was so surprised to discover the prevalence of Falk, how these people, 29:37 their overall life story ended up being some very remarkable lives. 29:45 But they had episodes that sometimes lasted even for years and of being lost 29:51 in the fog. 29:52 And when they were lost in the fog, well, there were multiple times. 29:57 But in the wake of a Cliff, fog was very prevalent. 30:03 And so that's why I think you see it with people who retire. 30:06 There's other kinds of cliffs that lead to it as well. 30:07 You can have the fog of youth, you can have the fog of success, 30:10 the fog of disappointment, the fog of grief, grief. 30:13 But the fog of in the wake of cliffs was very prevalent in this study. 30:18 And I just want to say, and it really bring it to everyone who 30:22 who's joining us today. 30:25 I've had episodes of fog. 30:27 Now that I have a word for it, it's really helpful to me. 30:30 My entire 20s were kind of in the fog and I've had other episodes of fog. 30:35 And when I was in the fog, I felt almost at times like, God, 30:39 you know, I should have this figured out. 30:43 And, and for any of you that have been in the 30:47 fog or maybe in the fog or know somebody that's in the fog, 30:52 there's nothing wrong with you in the fog. 30:56 It is a an artifact of living. 30:59 It is almost inevitable in the wake of a Cliff. 31:03 And life is punctuated by cliffs. 31:07 And so that sense of like, OK, this is to be expected that there will be 31:14 episodes of FOG rather than it's somehow a defect. 31:19 If everyone here today took away this idea that FOG is not a defect, 31:23 it's simply an artifact of living and we have to get through it, 31:28 but it's going to come. 31:30 I would feel really good about that. 31:32 So let me just pause there for a moment Mark, 31:34 and then I'll let you kind of go with where you'd like to to go with it. 31:37 And I'm, I'm checking my text messages here for 31:40 the chat. 31:40 Of course, I'll look at just a second. 31:42 One of the things, one of the points that you make that I 31:45 think is extremely important and and I was given this advice once when I was in 31:49 the fog and it was invaluable, which is do not make an irreversible 31:52 decision when you're in the fog. 31:54 Yes. 31:55 And I don't know if you want to elaborate on that or not, but yeah, so, 32:00 so one of the you were asking, you know, I think there's multiple elements of how 32:05 people got out of the fog. 32:07 But one of the main processes that people use to get out of the fog is this thing 32:13 that we called simplex stepping, which is kind of the antithesis of the 32:18 big irreversible decisions. 32:20 And simplex stepping is imagine you can only see two or three feet in front of 32:25 you in the fog. 32:26 You just, you can't see. 32:28 And they didn't just sit still and freeze up, 32:31 but they also didn't just go leaping to just like, 32:34 I just got to get out of the fog. 32:36 I don't like this so much. 32:37 I feel uncomfortable. 32:38 I've got to just make the fog go away. 32:40 So if you just do something big and irreversible and dramatic, 32:43 you're not thinking clearly. 32:45 You're, you're lost in the fog and you might just 32:47 actually tumble your way, make things worse. 32:50 You might even tumble over another Cliff. 32:52 And, and So what, what we found seemed to work for them is 32:56 you just look around and you kind of say, I really can't see very clearly. 33:03 So I but I can see of all the possible steps in this little circle around me, 33:07 this one looks like the next best 1. 33:10 So I'm just going to take that step and, and then, then once I've made that step, 33:15 I'll kind of look around again and reset and I'll take the what looks like the 33:19 next best step. 33:20 And by making a series of iterative small steps, 33:24 even if they didn't know where they were going, two things tended to happen. 33:29 One, they were making some progress that was 33:32 very iterative and the fog would would start to lift. 33:36 And the other marvelous thing that would happen sometimes in the wake of a Cliff 33:42 is those steps would start to move the frame and bring into frame in coatings 33:48 they didn't know they had. 33:51 That started to become part of the clues of what might come next. 33:55 You remember the story in the book of Cardis Collins. 33:59 And she lost her husband. 34:02 It was a tragic Cliff. 34:04 Her husband died in a plane crash, and he was a congressman. 34:10 And with the tradition in Congress, she could have the opportunity to fill 34:15 his seat. 34:17 And she did. 34:17 Wasn't sure she wants to do it right. 34:19 She had, she was an accountant in, in a government agency, in, in, in, in, 34:25 in Illinois. 34:27 She's like, I'm an accountant. 34:28 I'm an introvert. 34:30 I can't picture myself in the United States House of Representatives. 34:35 But George would have wanted me to at least give it a try. 34:38 So I'll just take a simple step, which is I'll just finish out his term 34:42 and see how it feels. 34:44 And once she was there, she would say, well, I think my next step is maybe I'll, 34:49 you know, maybe offer some thoughts in the 34:52 committee or maybe get involved on the side of drafting a piece of legislation 34:56 or, And I'll be quiet and I'll listen. 34:58 She was just taking she, it wasn't like, and now I'm a congressperson. 35:03 She was taking these steps as she worked through her own fog of grief in the Cliff. 35:08 But as she did that, she discovered that she had the encodings 35:14 to be a spectacular congressional leader, and she ended up as chair of the 35:21 Congressional Black Caucus. 35:24 And it was a a really marvelous little journey. 35:28 She didn't know that's where she would end up, 35:31 but the simplex steps began to show it step by step. 35:35 And by about her second or third term, the fog was clear and she it was gone. 35:40 And she was like, this is what I'm doing. 35:43 Yeah. 35:43 I think great, great, great thoughts on that. 35:46 I think the fact that you've put words to these phenomena is going to help people, 35:51 that people can say, oh, I'm in the fog. 35:53 There was never really a word for that before. 35:55 I remember a couple times in my life where, frankly, 35:58 it's been because of successes. 36:00 I said to Stacy, this will seem odd for me to say this, 36:03 but I feel a little disoriented right now. 36:06 You know, we have been, we've been striving to do this and do 36:08 this and do this, and we just did it. 36:10 And now I'm just like, I don't know, I didn't have a term for it exactly. 36:16 And, and, and now that there's a term for it, 36:19 people can say, oh, I'm in the fog. 36:20 It's not the end of the world. 36:22 People have made it through this. 36:23 I need to take some simple steps. 36:25 I need to not do something dramatic or crazy. 36:28 And maybe there's hope that I can get out of this. 36:30 You know, I, I just, Mark, I, I, I want to share with you actually. 36:35 So I had the fog of youth and I had that, which was a very difficult foggy thing 36:40 for me to eventually iterate through and, and how I ended up doing what I'm doing 36:46 was actually, there were a lot of simplex steps along 36:49 the way, but one of my foggy periods was in the, 36:52 in a fog of success. 36:54 And I'd always been prepared for failure and catastrophe and I just sort of 36:59 assumed it was going to come and it was going. 37:02 Things will even go badly and no one would read my books or whatever, right. 37:06 And and then you know, if you if you were to say, 37:09 when did I feel more clear and in some ways happier in 1998 when I was doing the 37:15 research with my team for what would become good to great, 37:19 but we had no idea what it would end up ultimately be becoming. 37:24 We're just doing the research or 2003 when I had a life altering success on my 37:31 hands after its publication. 37:34 Hands down the 98. 37:37 Was clearer and in many ways happier. 37:39 So I was just, I knew what I was. 37:41 We're working on the research. 37:42 We'll figure it out. 37:42 We'll figure out if there's a book in this like it was just this March. 37:46 I was utterly unprepared for the level of success that came with good to great and 37:53 it was truly befuddling. 37:55 Fortunately, my wife Joanne, is a strategic genius and she kept me 37:59 from making big, irreversible decisions that would have 38:03 taken me totally out of frame. 38:05 I could have started a huge consulting firm that would have been out of frame. 38:09 I could have started a big, you know, coaching enterprise that would have been 38:14 out of frame and, and, and so unfortunately I had somebody by my 38:18 side that kind of helped me Simplex step in the right way. 38:22 But I was really confused and befuddled by it because I didn't see it coming. 38:28 I didn't expect it. 38:31 Let me let me give you a question we have from the chat. 38:35 Were there certain things you saw individuals do to avoid the fog as they 38:39 made transitions in life so that they were less uncertain and less foggy? 38:49 So, so I'll, I'll let me give you an example to think 38:53 about. 38:54 Put some context to this. 38:57 As a former governor, I got to know a number of the other 39:00 governors and I was constantly amazed at how many of them didn't prepare for their 39:05 post governorship. 39:08 And so part of what I have done and I've actually coached a couple of governors is 39:13 you, you got a plan a little bit, you got to think about these cliffs that 39:16 are coming up. 39:18 Yes, the difference between being a governor 39:20 and then the next day not being the governor, it's pretty dramatic. 39:24 And and if you know that's coming up, if you know retirement's coming up, 39:28 if you know there's some Cliff that's approaching, 39:31 I just wonder and perhaps the question is what can you do to prepare for that? 39:36 So one of the things that I'll give you a there's a section in the book that speaks 39:44 specifically to this, which is pre clearing the fog before the 39:50 Cliff. 39:51 If you can see the Cliff coming. 39:55 And we had a number of the people in our study that you have some cliffs you can't 39:59 see coming, right? 40:02 Cardis Collins did not, of course, see her Cliff coming. 40:08 Katherine Graham, when she lost her husband to the disease 40:12 of manic depression and he took his own life, 40:16 she that was a shocking ripping apart of her life. 40:20 But there are other times when you can see at the end of an athletic career is 40:25 coming, the I'm not going to be able to 40:28 necessarily be the primary astronaut forever. 40:31 And and so one of the things that we found is that sometimes people can begin 40:36 iterating and taking simplex steps beforehand. 40:39 One very simple example of that in in in the study is Alan Page began taking, 40:44 you know, initially just some initial law classes 40:47 while he was playing in the National Football League. 40:52 And that's when he discovered in the series of steps, 40:55 laying the foundations and clearing some of the fog before his NFL career ended. 41:01 So I for somebody who can see the Cliff coming, 41:04 if you're going to sell your company or your governor of days are going to be 41:08 over or whatever it is, it's going to end and you know it. 41:15 You can begin the simplex stepping months, maybe even years in advance. 41:21 OK, let's come back to the question now. 41:23 I know there's people on that have either recently sold or thinking about selling 41:27 their companies. 41:28 And I know you've worked with all founders in, 41:30 in across every sector in the economy. 41:33 What what advice do you have? 41:34 What have you seen? 41:36 I'm not sure people think about the, the Cliff that that creates. 41:40 Yeah, I so I don't, I've seen a lot of people in the fog. 41:47 And, and Mark, I'm curious actually, as, as you've watched this and then let's 41:53 kind of build upon it 'cause you've now probably have in your own experience set 41:59 having seen, you know, X number of people who actually did 42:03 retire or sold their company. 42:06 And that was a version of retirement or, or retired from elected politics, right. 42:12 And that was done and I, and I'm, I'm first of all, maybe I just be, 42:16 we can build upon this a bit, but what has been your observation of 42:21 what happens in kind of the, the wake of that, the fog of that? 42:26 I have been surprised at how and, and I think this book can help. 42:32 I don't think people anticipate the, the depth of the Cliff and the density of 42:38 the fog that's going to occur when these events occur, 42:42 particularly a success event that's self-imposed. 42:47 You know it. 42:48 We're, we're so driven in this country to make 42:50 money and accumulate things and all of that, 42:52 that there are a lot of people that I know that their business gets to be worth 42:56 X amount of money. 42:57 They sell it. 42:59 They've been perfectly encoded to, to create this from nothing to work 12 43:03 hours a day, seven days a week. 43:05 Actually, many of them are quite passionate about 43:07 the work that they do. 43:09 And I don't think that they think, oh, you know, 43:12 once I saw this thing or once I step back from it, I'm not do I'm, I'm out of frame. 43:18 You know, I, I'm, it's amazing to me that people that are 43:22 incredibly good at various things quit or retire to play a game of golf that 43:27 they're bad at. 43:30 Why the hell do people voluntarily get out of frame to do something they're not 43:34 even good at? 43:35 So I, I would say generally what I've seen is a 43:37 lack of preparation. 43:39 Yeah. 43:39 So, so let's pick up on that. 43:42 And and I personally, I feel very, very passionate about this question 43:49 because first, just a context for me. 43:54 I was very uplifted by what a lot of the people in this study did in their later 44:02 decades. 44:03 And you know, that one really interesting little 44:07 statistic, which is if you take the the pages of the 44:12 biographies that are written on Benjamin Franklin, the major ones, 44:17 and you just ask a very simple question, what percentage of the book on average 44:24 remains after Franklin turns age 60? 44:28 And the answer is 53%. 44:31 So if you think about the idea that when you hit 60, 44:35 maybe more than half of what your life could add up to is ahead of you. 44:41 And and then you look at a lot of the people in our study, 44:45 like the novelist Toni Morrison, who, you know, 44:48 didn't even come into frame until fully as a writer in until her 40s. 44:53 And she didn't publish Beloved till age 56 Jazz, 44:57 which was one of her absolute favorite breakthrough books in her early 60s and, 45:02 and, and did many of her Seminole pieces of 45:05 writing after that. 45:07 And you can see this with the musicians and you can see with I am Pei doing the 45:12 Louvre pyramid in his 70s and the Museum of Islamic Art at age 91. 45:18 I mean, what would, what would have, what if I am Pei had retired to be a bad 45:28 golfer, right? 45:30 Rather than giving us the Louvre pyramid, right? 45:36 There wouldn't be a Louvre pyramid. 45:38 And so, so, so first, there's just a context for this, 45:41 which is that if you sort of think of it as like, I've sold my company, 45:45 I've sold my business, I've retired as an executive or I've 45:49 retired from politics. 45:50 That was sort of the peak. 45:52 But what if actually the peak is after that? 45:57 What if you've reframed everything as that's not the peak, 46:02 That is simply a little plateau. 46:06 And really, remember, Benjamin Franklin was a business person 46:10 who built an empire and sold his business to his partner at age 42. 46:16 And then look what happened. 46:18 And then look what happened. 46:20 Scientist helped Co found a nation, right? 46:23 Boom. 46:25 So that's just a context for this and and what I really and what we'll go here in a 46:30 moment to how I would love for people to think of some questions for themselves. 46:36 But Mark, your question is so important because if 46:41 you think of all the human capacity, if we take the idea that when you hit 55 46:48 or 60, your warm up is over and your great 46:52 capacity is ahead of you and you put a frame on yourself that, well, 46:58 I really expended my great capacity already. 47:04 All that capacity that could be of incredible use is lost to the world. 47:13 And imagine if instead of that happening, thousands or maybe 10s of thousands of 47:21 leaders and executives actually accelerated after those that sort of 47:28 success Cliff. 47:30 Think of what could happen. 47:32 Think of all the amazing leadership versions of the Louvre pyramid that would 47:39 that could happen. 47:41 That wouldn't happen if people said I did my big thing and I'm done. 47:47 I don't want to. 47:48 I'm sorry. 47:49 I thought you were. 47:49 Go ahead. 47:50 Largest company. 47:50 The largest company, the largest company in our space was 47:54 founded by Roy Christensen when he was 66. 47:58 Really. 47:58 That's when he started the company when he was 66. 48:02 OK, what? 48:03 Just out of curiosity, what did he do before that? 48:05 He he he ran nursing home companies, but decided at 66 that he wanted to take 48:10 all of the knowledge that he had had primarily from companies that had failed. 48:15 Yeah. 48:15 And started over A and develop a new kind of company. 48:19 And it's now the largest of the space. 48:21 OK. 48:21 So for that to just be like, like front and center in your whole world, 48:27 If, if you would have, if, if his life had been written at age 60, 48:32 what really his life did. 48:35 I mean, it was all yet to come. 48:37 And I, I, I really want people to think this way. 48:40 So OK, so let, let me just ask you a question mark and 48:44 then I'll, I'll, I'll respond to that question with how 48:48 I'd love for people to think about this, for those who are thinking about a post 48:55 executive life, if there is one. 49:01 What for the people who sort of don't get out of the fog, other than golfing, 49:06 how are there any patterns you see as to how they try to spend their time? 49:14 So I've, I've known people that have retired and 49:17 not done, you know, gone on to do what we would say a 49:21 traditional career and they're still happy. 49:24 And I, I think their encodings are still there. 49:27 And you give the example of, I can't remember the woman's name, 49:32 the the suffragist who took care of her sister's daughter. 49:37 Yeah. 49:37 And by traditional standards, she would not be considered successful, 49:41 but she was. 49:42 She it was just in a, in a different way. 49:45 So what what I see people just just with different priorities. 49:49 Their their priorities change more to family, 49:52 to friends and and maybe that's maybe that's a healthier balance. 49:56 But but then I have many others that retire, 49:59 think that they're not going to have traditional success, 50:02 get bored and then go through a journey to figure out what's next. 50:06 And, and sometimes they've been successful and 50:08 finding it and sometimes they haven't been. 50:11 So first, just a a quick comment, which is that in the case of Alice Paul 50:14 and Lucy Burns, Alice Paul remained on a very public 50:17 version of being in frame, working on the Equal Rights Amendment and 50:21 women's rights for the rest of her life. 50:23 Lucy Burns chose the responsibility to raise her late sister's daughter. 50:29 And then family and church. 50:32 I think both are equally wonderful and admirable. 50:35 I want to be really clear about that. 50:37 And I the, and it really raises a point, which is that being in frame and, and, 50:43 and really putting yourself in something that is just as fire filled, 50:48 just as in frame for you as your prior life doesn't mean it has to be visible to 50:54 the world in some big grandiose way. 50:57 It could be very private. 50:59 It could be very personal. 51:01 And, and, and so the visibility of it is less 51:04 important than the extent to which you are fully dedicated to it. 51:09 And it really taps your encodings the way the prior thing did. 51:13 It just might not be out front in the world. 51:17 I'd like for people to think about kind of three basic models of how you might go 51:27 to a post executive leadership or any form of major leadership role. 51:36 One is the Barbara Mcclintock model, 2 is the Grace Hopper model, 51:40 and three is the Benjamin Franklin model. 51:44 In the case of Barbara Mcclintock, her approach to life was she had one big 51:50 thing, which she just went ever and ever deeper 51:54 into, which was the control of genes as a 51:58 geneticist and figuring out how that works. 52:02 And, and she just kind of did this one thing 52:05 all the way to the end. 52:07 And it was a beautiful life for her. 52:08 Wonderful thing. 52:09 She never stopped. 52:11 And that would be somebody a little bit on a, 52:14 a business version of that would be someone like, say, Steve Jobs, 52:18 who once he returned to Apple and before he left Apple, when he had Brandon, 52:22 you know, there was that period of time when he was 52:25 away. 52:26 But when he came back, his big thing that he just went deeper 52:29 and deeper into was Apple. 52:31 Apple was to Steve Jobs what genetics was to Barbara Mcclintock. 52:36 And there are some people for whom actually, before you sell, 52:40 you should ask yourself, could it be that building my company is 52:44 to me what building Apple was to Steve Jobs and what doing genetics was to 52:49 Barbara Mcclintock? 52:50 Why would I sell off the thing that more than anything I want to do with my entire 52:57 life? 52:59 And for some people, that is it. 53:02 So that's one model. 53:03 The Barbara Mcclintock Steve Jobs model was the second model, 53:08 which is that the thing that you really are encoded for is broader than just the 53:14 company or organization that you are running. 53:17 Let's suppose in the case of Grace Hopper, she was really encoded for gadgets. 53:22 And she was also, when she left the university, 53:26 she found a new platforms. 53:28 She learned how to learn as a business executive running an R&D department. 53:32 She learned how to get things done in the DoD and in in the United States Navy. 53:37 There was a theme of computers. 53:40 But throughout she kept changing the platforms and ways in which she'd do it. 53:44 So for some people would be actually, you know, 53:47 maybe my real encoding is I build great teams that do great things. 53:52 And so I'm actually not retiring. 53:55 I'm simply going to change the platform on which I express the encoding of 54:01 leading and building teams. 54:04 And maybe it was initially in my company, but now it'll be in some other arena. 54:09 And that's the kind of Grace Hopper model. 54:12 I do this one thing, I'm just changing the platforms in which 54:16 I do it. 54:17 Then there's the third model, which is Benjamin Franklin model, 54:22 and that is I'm going to do two or three really different big things in a life. 54:30 I was a business executive and I built my printing empire. 54:33 Big thing number one, I'm a scientist and I did the electricity 54:38 experiments. 54:40 That's big thing #2 then comes the revolution. 54:45 I got a third big thing going to Co found a nation and bring a constitution into 54:51 life. 54:52 And so you'll notice that all of them, though what they tended to not do was to 55:00 just spread themselves across a whole bunch of 20 different time fillers 55:08 without a commitment to something really big. 55:13 And in the case of Lucy Burns, we touched upon the big thing she 55:17 committed herself to was raising her late sister's daughter and committing to the 55:23 work she was doing in her church. 55:26 But it was a big thing. 55:28 And so my message for people is kind of which model are you? 55:34 It could be any one of those, but it involves as much of A level of 55:39 choosing responsibility and commitment post selling post, 55:43 leaving that executive role post as anything you did before. 55:47 And here's the thing, I, I don't know if this is good news or bad 55:51 news. 55:51 If you do it right, you're going to end up working harder 55:56 than you ever did before because you want to. 56:01 And, and I think you make it very clear in the 56:05 book that your big thing might not be what society traditionally about. 56:11 You may not be creating EBITDA or a new company, 56:15 it can be creating a deep relationship with your deceased sister's child that 56:21 can be just as important. 56:23 OK, so I feel like this is like we're down to 56:26 our last few minutes. 56:28 And so, you know, sometimes you're you're the, 56:30 you're The Beatles or The Rolling Stones or whatever. 56:33 So you get called for an on court and they always want you to do your oldie 56:37 right. 56:37 The original. 56:38 Well, there's actually a tie to the original in 56:41 your book because there's a reference to not just getting the right people on the 56:46 bus, which everybody on this call is striving 56:49 and working to do every day. 56:51 But I think you're growing recognition that it's really important to get them on 56:55 the right seat. 56:57 Yes. 56:58 And let's let's spend our last few minutes. 57:01 It's an oldie but goodie that's kind of been expanded a little bit. 57:04 Yeah, I guess so maybe in the in the genre of 57:07 of building great companies and that that that genre maybe get the right people on 57:13 the bus is a little bit like I can't get no satisfaction. 57:17 So it's even maybe got the same number of syllables. 57:22 But the but so this work changed me in a lot of ways, as you know, Mark, 57:27 and one of the biggest changes for me, so time back to the, to the prior work, 57:33 but also it had it affected me emotionally is that I used to, you know, 57:38 of course we know about the right people on the bus, 57:42 but I really came to see it's about right people in the key seats. 57:47 And what it really means to be a right person in a key seat is that somebody's 57:52 in a seat that puts them in frame with their encodings and that you can have the 57:58 same person. 57:59 You know, if you, if you took John Glenn as amazing as John 58:02 Glenn was and put him in a seat for which he isn't particularly well encoded, 58:06 he's not in frame. 58:07 He's not the John Glenn we we know about that we otherwise think of. 58:12 And every person on your team is either more or less in frame, 58:17 in the seat that they're in. 58:20 And we spent a lot of time. 58:21 I used to feel so much frustration with what people are not. 58:27 And then I would put a lot of energy into trying to change them into what I felt I 58:33 needed them to be in order to breathe in my life or in the seat that they help. 58:38 And what really changed for me in this study is I don't do that anymore. 58:44 I don't try to change people into what they're not. 58:49 Instead, I try to see what they really are and to 58:53 ensure that their responsibilities are in line with their encodings, 58:59 what feeds their fire, puts them in frame. 59:04 And when that happens, I no longer feel frustrated with what 59:08 they're not, but I just feel really grateful for what 59:12 they are. 59:14 And if there was one, there's a number of leadership lessons 59:17 that we're not looking for in doing this research. 59:20 It's not what it was about. 59:21 But if there was one big leadership lesson from this, 59:24 it would be to get really, really good and helping the people on 59:29 your team see what their encodings are and for you to see them. 59:33 And to make sure that they are in seats where they're not a lightning bug because 59:40 they're out of frame, but they're in a seat that makes them 59:45 just flash as a lightning bolt that just keeps flashing because they're in frame. 59:53 And if you do that, their life will be better. 59:56 Your life will be better and and the overall drama and frustration will drop 1:00:02 precipitously and be replaced with tremendous gratitude. 1:00:08 Jim, what a beautiful message to end our hour 1:00:10 on. 1:00:10 I can't believe we've already been at this for an hour. 1:00:12 It's gone very quickly. 1:00:14 Again, let me thank you on behalf, not, not just myself, 1:00:17 but the entire long term care sector for the respect that you've shown us over the 1:00:22 many years. 1:00:23 You, you change you and your team and I know 1:00:25 you would focus on your team really literally did change the business world 1:00:29 for the better with your, with your prior works. 1:00:32 I think this book has a potential to have the same kind of impact on people's 1:00:37 individual lives. 1:00:38 I suspect that and I, I hope that ten, 20-30 years from now, 1:00:41 just as people talk about getting the right people on the bus, you know, 1:00:45 level 5 leaders, I suspect people will be talking about 1:00:48 being in and out of the fog and getting in frame and out of frame. 1:00:51 And I think this is really, really important. 1:00:54 And thank you so much for what you've done and for being here today, Jim. 1:00:58 Well, I, I want to thank you for the opportunity 1:01:01 to reconnect with your community and, and for us to have a conversation. 1:01:06 What I really hope happens is that people read this and ultimately then have 1:01:11 conversations with people in their life that they love. 1:01:15 Great. 1:01:15 And I want to thank everybody that's watching this, 1:01:18 whether it's live or on recording. 1:01:19 I certainly want to thank our sponsors who allow us to do all of this for free 1:01:23 without annoying pop up ads or anything like that, especially First Quality, 1:01:28 which sponsors the Let's Talk segment. 1:01:30 And thank all of you for watching and your continued support of Park Place. 1:01:34 Oh my God, If you're still watching this, this means that you watch the end of a 1:01:39 very long video on Park Place. 1:01:41 I'm not sure what that means. 1:01:42 It says something about you or maybe there was just nothing else to watch 1:01:46 today or maybe your priorities are a little bit off. 1:01:49 But whatever it is, we really appreciate your 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